Trish Regan: Let's get to the tariffs. I've seen some of your commentaries too. And Xin, I appreciate that you think China could lower some of its tariffs. I watched you say that and I'm totally in agreement with you. In 2016, the average tariff, effectively a tax, that was charged on an American good in China was 9.9%. That was nearly three times what the US was charging. So what do you say about this, what do you think about saying "hey, to heck with these tariffs, let's get rid of them altogether." Would that work?

翠西·里根：那我们来谈谈关税的问题，我也看了你之前的一些评论。刘欣，我也很感谢，你说中国可以降低一些关税，我看到你说了这个话，我完全同意你这个观点，2016年加征在美国产品上的平均关税，是9.9%，比美国加征在中国身上的高三倍。你觉得这个关税该怎么解决？如果我建议说“要不咱们采取统一行动，统一降低关税”，你觉得这可行吗？

Liu Xin: I think that would be a wonderful idea. Don’t you think for American consumers, products from China would be even cheaper? And for consumers in China, products from America would be so much cheaper too? I think that would be a wonderful idea, I think we should work towards that. But you talked about rule-based system, rule-based order. This is the thing, if you want to change the rules it has to be done in mutual consensus, basically when we talk about tariffs it’s not just between China and the United States. I understand if you lower tariffs just between China and the United States the Europeans will come, the Japanese will come, the Venezuelans will probably come and say 'hey, we want the same tariffs'. You can’t discriminate between countries. So it’s a very complicated settlement to reach. I think the last time the world agreed on the kind of tariff reduction China should commit to, was exactly the result of multilateral and years of difficult negotiations. The United States saw, in its interests, and decided to what degree they could agree, or to what degree they could lower their tariff - nobody put a gun to their head - and China agreed, although with some difficulty, to lower their, our, tariff considerably, it is all the decision of countries according to their own self-interest. Now things are different, yes, I agree, 20 years later, what are we going to do? Maybe these old rules need to be changed. You know what, let’s talk about it, let’s do it according to the rules, the same rules, but if you don’t like the rules, we'll change the rules, but it has to be a multilateral process.

刘欣：我觉得这是一个很好的想法。你不觉得这对于美国消费者来说，他们可以享受更加实惠的中国产品？对于中国的消费者来说美国的产品也会变的实惠？这是我们共同努力的方向。你提到一个基于规则的一个系统，或者是一个基于规则的秩序，所以说，如果要改变规则的话，就必须双方先达成共识。您谈到关税的问题，不光是中美之间的问题。如果你降低中美之间的关税，那欧洲会来、日本也会来、委内瑞拉也会来，同样要求降低关税，你不能区别对待，所以要达成这个协议，是非常复杂的。对，我是说关于贸易的问题，关于关税的，我认为上一次全球达成关于降低关税的意见，中方也做出了承诺，这就是多边主义和长期艰难谈判的结果。美国看到自己的利益，决定他们要降低到什么程度，降低多少，没人拿抢指着他们的脑袋。中国虽然遇到了一些困难，那我们也大幅降低了我们的关税，这都是各国基于自身利益做出的决定。现在大环境变了，我同意，20年过去了，我们现在要怎么做，有一些规则是需要改变的。你知道吗？那我们就聊聊这些规则，我们可以按照相同的规则行事，如果你不喜欢一些规则，那我们就改变它，但是我说的是这必须是多方达成的共同决定。

Trish Regan: There are rules. You can go back to the trade agreement of 1974, section 301, there is a rule that enables the United States to use tariffs to try and influence the behavior of China, should it be taking, stealing our intellectual property. And that, I think in some ways, is part of what this all comes back to and it's a sense of trust. I hear you on the forced technology transfer and I think that some American companies perhaps have made some mistakes in terms of being willing to overlook what they might have to give up in the near term, but this an issue where the country as a whole needs to step in. And we're seeing the United States do that, perhaps in a way that hasn't happened. It's been in the background, don't get me wrong. I think previous administrations have identified the challenge but have really been a little unwilling to take it on so we're living in these very different times. How do you define state capitalism?

翠西·里根：那我们回到1974年《贸易法》301条款，《贸易法》301条款中，有规则授权美国可以用关税去限制中国的行为，如果中国拿走或窃取知识产权的话。某种程度来说，这是事情的本源，是关于信任的问题。你谈到强迫技术转让，一些美国公司也许做了错误的决定，愿意按照中国的要求，放弃一些东西。这个问题要从国家的角度介入。我们看到美国已经做出一些举措，并且是以一种前所未有的方式在做。现在实情就是如此，请不要误解为我的个人想法。我想说之前的政府看到了这样一些挑战，但是他们没有想要解决的意愿，目前来讲时代变了。你怎么定义国家资本主义？

Liu Xin: You mean how do I define…? Sorry I didn’t hear the last bit, you mean the forced technology transfer, or so-called forced technology transfer?

刘欣：我没有听清，您能再说一遍吗？想要定义什么？我听到你说强迫技术转让。

Trish Regan: No, state capitalism. I talked about forced technology transfer, but state capitalism.

翠西·里根：不，国家资本主义。之前是谈到过强迫技术转让，但现在说的是国家资本主义。

Liu Xin: Because you started with the forced technology transfer and somehow you skit away.

刘欣：你之前谈强迫技术转让，怎么突然跳到了别的主题？

Trish Regan: Hang on one second, Xin. Your system of economics is very interesting because you have a capitalist system but it's state-run, so talk to us about that, how do you define it?

翠西·里根：等一下刘欣，你让我说完，你们的经济体系，是挺有意思的，你们有一个资本主义的体系，但是受国家控制的。跟我们聊一聊这方面，你是如何定义的？

Liu Xin: We would like to define it as socialism with Chinese characteristics, where market forces are expected to play the dominating or the deciding role in the allocation of resources. Basically, we want it to be a market economy but there are some Chinese characteristics, for instance some state owned enterprises which are playing an important but increasingly smaller role, maybe, in the economy. And everybody thinks that China's economy is state-owned, everything is state-controlled, everything is state, state, state, but let me tell you, it is not the true picture. If you look at the statistics, for instance 80% of Chinese employees were employed by private enterprises, 80% of Chinese exports were done by private companies, 65% of technological innovation were achieved, carried out, by private enterprises, some of the largest companies that affect our lives, for instance some Internet companies or some 5G technology companies, they are private companies. So we are, yes, a socialist economy with Chinese characteristics, but not everything is state-controlled, state-run, it’s not like that, we are actually quite mixed, very dynamic and actually very very open as well.

刘欣：我们定义是中国特色社会主义市场经济，市场力量依然是占主导力量，它在资源分配上，起决定性作用。它本身是市场经济，但是会有中国特色。比如说有一些国有企业，在经济中，起到非常重要的，但是相对越来越小的作用。大家都会觉得中国的经济，所有都是国家控制，所有都是国家、国家、国家，但事实却并不是如此，你如果看一下数字，80%中国雇员都是受雇于民营企业的，也有80%的出口来自于民营企业。65%的创新是源于民营企业。很多对人们日常生活影响巨大的公司，比如说一些网络公司、5G公司，都是私营企业。我们的确是中国特色社会主义市场经济，但不是所有的东西都是由国家控制，我们其实是一个非常混合、非常活跃、非常开放的经济体。

Trish Regan: I think you need to probably keep being open. I think that that, as a free trade person myself, I think that that's the direction to pursue and ultimately that leads to greater economic prosperity for you and better economic prosperity for us, so then you get a win-win. This was interesting, I appreciate you being here. Thank you.

翠西·里根：我觉得你们可能希望能够继续这样开放，因为我个人是自由贸易支持者，我认为这是正确的方向。最终我们希望中国更繁荣，美国也更繁荣，这样的话我们才能双赢。我觉得我们的对话很有趣，非常感谢你。

Liu Xin: Thank you, thank you so much. If you want to have a discussion in the future, we can do that.

刘欣：谢谢，非常感谢！如果未来还想讨论的话，我们也可以继续。

Trish Regan: I'd love it.

翠西·里根：我是非常希望的。

 

来源：CGTN 日期：2019年5月31日

心译翻译工作室

英语翻译