南华早报记者:
South China Morning Post:
请问各位专家，修例运动到现在，中央提出了两个明显的方针，第一是止暴制乱，第二是爱国爱港群众与工商界人士联合谴责暴力，跟这些人划分界限。但是目前看来，这两个措施的效用并不是特别明显，而且在今天，又有一批公务员说会发起下一次的游行。请问，目前除了出台这两个主要的方针之外，还有没有其他的主要方法去考虑弥合社会的撕裂以及降低局势的温度？民间这些诉求是有很大的民意支持，是否已经不可以考虑，一个也不能答应？谢谢。
In response to the anti-amendment movement, the central government has set out two obvious principles. One is to stop violence and chaos, and the other is to unite the people who truly love the country and the HKSAR, and business leaders to condemn violence and establish a line against those who involved in the violence. However, it seems that the two measures have yet to bring about pronounced effect. Today, another group of civil servants said that they will stage a demonstration. My question is, besides the two major principles, are there other measures to be taken to close the social rift and cool down the current situation? The demands expressed in the recent activities have great public support. Is it no longer possible to consider them? Are all of them unacceptable? Thank you.
邹平学:
Zou Pingxue:
谢谢这位记者朋友的提问。大家知道，从6月份以来，香港因为修例引起的游行示威以及暴力冲击事件愈演愈烈，香港也正面临着回归以来最严峻的形势。8月7日，国务院港澳办和香港中联办举行的座谈会上，中央有关部门负责人指出，当前最紧迫和压倒一切的任务就是止暴制乱，恢复秩序。刚才韩大元教授也讲了，法治作为香港的一个核心价值，是香港繁荣稳定的基石，也是每个香港市民切身利益的保护神，是香港再出发、再前进的核心竞争力。我也非常赞同强化法治思维、维护法治尊严、恢复法治秩序，是目前香港止暴制乱的最大武器，也是香港社会面对矛盾、解决冲突、平息乱象和遏制暴力的最大公约数。大家在电视和网络媒体上都看到了，最近一个时期，暴力分子冲击警方、围堵机场、堵塞交通、胁迫市民参与示威和罢工、非法禁锢和蓄意伤害、肆意侮辱国旗和国徽等行为。这些人的暴力行为正在不断升级，触犯了香港的多项法律，像《刑事罪行条例》《侵害人身罪条例》《航空保安条例》《公安条例》《国旗及国徽条例》，社会危害性十分严重，法律后果也十分严重。
Thank you for your question. As you know, since June, the protests and acts of violence related to the amendments in Hong Kong have become increasingly intense, and Hong Kong is facing the most severe situation since its return to the motherland. At the symposium held by the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office of the State Council and the Liaison Office of the Central People's Government in HKSAR on Aug. 7, officials of relevant central government departments stressed that currently the most urgent task and overriding priority is to stop the violence and accompanying chaos, and restore order. As Professor Han Dayuan said just now, the rule of law, as one of the core values in Hong Kong and a cornerstone for its prosperity and stability, can safeguard the interests of all Hong Kong people and offer a key competitive edge for future development. I very much agree that heightening awareness of the importance of the rule of law, maintaining its dignity, and restore the rule of law and social order are the best weapons to stop violence and chaos. It is also the broadest common ground reached in the Hong Kong society on how to confront problems, solve conflicts, calm things down and curb violence. As you saw on TV and on the internet recently, violent offenders attacked police officers, besieged the airport, halted traffic, coerced residents to participate in protests and strikes, illegally imprisoned and deliberately hurt others, and wantonly insulted the national flags and the national emblems. Their escalating violent behaviors violate multiple laws in Hong Kong, including the Crime Ordinance, the Offences against the Person Ordinance, the Aviation Security Ordinance, the Public Order Ordinance and the National Flag and National Emblem Ordinance. These acts have severe social impact and serious legal consequences.
我们可以把两天前发生在香港国际机场的情况回顾一下。根据国际惯例，在机场这种十分重要的公共场所惹事生非，刑罚是相对比较重的。香港有专门的《航空保安条例》，第15条规定，如任何人以物件或行为导致或相当可能导致他人死亡或严重人身伤亡，危害或有相当可能危害机场安全运作，或者毁损机场设施，或者令机场服务无法继续进行，则涉嫌危害机场安全，一经公诉程序定罪，最高可处终身监禁。从法律字面上来理解，香港机场发生的那些非法集会、破坏机场的公共设施、用手推车堵电梯和通道等，已经导致机场瘫痪。8月13日晚和14日凌晨，针对内地旅客的暴力行为、袭警等都构成了相关犯罪。
Let's review the situation at the Hong Kong International Airport two days ago. Based on international practice, disrupting operation of a key public space, such as an airport, will receive comparatively severe punishment. According to article 15 of Hong Kong's Aviation Security Ordinance, it is an offence of endangering safety at aerodromes for any person to commit, whether by means of any device or otherwise, any act of violence which causes or is likely to cause death or serious personal injury; endangers or is likely to endanger the safe operation; destroys facilities in an aerodrome; and disrupts the services of an aerodrome. Anyone who commits an offence abovementioned is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life. From a legal perspective, what happened at the Hong Kong International Airport paralyzed its operations by means of illegal rallies, destroying public facilities, and blocking elevators and passages with trolleys. The assaults on mainland passengers as well as Hong Kong police on the evening of Aug. 13 and after midnight constitute a crime.
也有很多示威者认为，我没有参与暴力，我就是坐在那里阻止别人登机，或者不让他离开，不违法，其实这种行为也触犯了多重法律。首先他触犯了《公安条例》下的非法集结罪，其实也可能构成香港法律里说的“暴动罪”。我查了有关条例规定，比如说在《公安条例》中，如果公众集会或游行违反法律限制性规定，根据第17条A和第17条B可构成“未经批准集结”或“公众地方内扰乱秩序”，若3人或以上集结，行为扰乱秩序或带有威吓性，意图造成或相当可能造成破坏社会安宁， 根据第18（1）条可构成“非法集结罪”等。所以我们可以看到，就是简单地举起双手，用身体来阻挡旅客离开机场或者进入旅客要去的区域，限制他人的自由进出，都极可能会触犯普通法下的非法禁锢的罪行。
There are also a number of protestors who think they haven't yet participated in the violence. They believe that it is not against the law for them to just sit there and prevent others from boarding a flight or exiting the airport. The fact is that their behaviors already violate many laws. First of all, they should be considered guilty of the offence of unlawful assembly as stated in Hong Kong's Public Order Ordinance. Actually, it may also constitute the crime of riot under the law of Hong Kong. Based on my research, taking Hong Kong's Public Order Ordinance as an example, if a public assembly or public procession violates regulations, it shall be an unauthorized assembly and disorder in public places according to the article 17A and 17B. In addition, when three or more persons, assembled together, conduct themselves in a disorderly, intimidating manner intended or likely to commit a breach of the peace, they are an unlawful assembly. Therefore, we can see that behaviors such as simply raising hands, using one's body to prevent passengers from leaving the airport or going to other areas as they desire, as well as restricting their freedom of movement, are very likely to be considered as unlawful detention, as stated in Hong Kong's common law.
我们看到机管局14日取得了法院临时禁制令，禁止任何人非法地及有意图地，故意阻碍或者干扰香港国际机场的正常使用，也不得在机场出席或参与任何机管局指定地方之外的示威、抗议或者公众活动，警方可以遵照法庭颁布的禁制令清场，如果有关人士违反禁制令，阻碍执法人员执法，涉嫌触犯藐视法庭罪。
We notice that on Aug. 14, the Airport Authority Hong Kong obtained an interim injunction to restrain persons from unlawfully and willfully obstructing or interfering with the proper use of Hong Kong International Airport. Any attendance or participation in a demonstration, protest and related public events at the airport is also restrained, except for those in the places designated by the Airport Authority Hong Kong. The police can launch a clearance operation in accordance with the interim injunction. Any breach of the interim injunction or impediment to law enforcement could constitute contempt of court.
2014年“占中”期间，就有团体向法院申请禁制令了，后来我们看到效果是不错的。
During the "Occupy Central" movement in 2014, some groups applied to the court for injunctions. We later found that worked well.
我们看到，在法律上，除了现在采取的手段外，行政长官会同行政会议也可以根据《公安条例》或者《紧急情况规例条例》宣布一系列恢复治安的命令或者规定，也就是说，当社会出现一些严重的危害秩序的行为时，可以在一段时间内禁止公众聚集、划定禁区、颁布宵禁令以及颁布一系列的紧急情况规则或者命令，所以香港的法律是非常健全的，有很多法律资源可以在严格执法的情况下解决当前的乱局。
We have seen that, legally speaking, in addition to the measures now adopted, the chief executive and the Executive Council can also issue a series of orders or regulations to restore law and order in accordance with the Public Order Ordinance or the Emergency Regulations Ordinance. When there are some serious acts that endanger social order, for a period of time, public rallies can be banned, the restricted area can be demarcated, a curfew can be imposed and a series of emergency rules or orders can be issued. Therefore, the laws of Hong Kong are very sound and there are many legal resources that can solve current chaos with strict enforcement.
这里我想呼吁参与非法游行集会的人士，特别是青年学生，要三思而后行，要看到这样的行为给他人的合法利益、社会秩序和公共利益带来的严重危害性，要认清这样的违法犯罪行为给自己的前途带来的危害性。广大市民、学生家长和学校的老师，以及我们的各大媒体，要从爱护青年学生健康成长的角度出发，旗帜鲜明地抵制和反对违法暴力行为，抵制和反对任何鼓动、蛊惑、教唆年轻人参与违法暴力活动的行为。我就讲这些，谢谢。
Here I would like to appeal to those who are participating in illegal assembly or procession, especially young students, to think twice. They should understand the serious harm caused by such acts to the legitimate interests, social order and public interests of others, as well as the harmful effects of illegal and criminal activities on their own future. The general public, parents of students and teachers of the universities, as well as major media outlets in Hong Kong, must have a clear-cut stand to resist and oppose illegal acts of violence, as well as resisting and opposing any acts to incite, delude and instigate young people to participate in illegal activities of violence. That's all I want to say. Thank you.
新加坡联合早报记者:
Lianhe Zaobao:
我的问题是关于恐怖主义的定义。本周一港澳办也提到，香港出现了恐怖主义的苗头，前天机场发生暴力事件后，港澳办也做出相关的谴责，说这是近乎恐怖主义的行径，不过这个恐怖主义的定义有不一致的情况，昨天香港高层在记者会上有提到过，机场事故是严重，但是罪行并不构成恐怖主义行为。请问学者、专家们怎么看这个问题？恐怖主义的定义是什么？延伸来看的话，对恐怖分子应该采取什么样的惩治措施？
My question is about the definition of terrorism. The Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office of the State Council said on Monday that a tendency of resorting to terrorism had emerged in Hong Kong, and after the airport violence the day before yesterday, the office voiced condemnation, saying that was almost a terrorist act. However, this definition of terrorism is inconsistent with the one that Hong Kong authorities mentioned at a press conference yesterday. They said that the incident at the Hong Kong airport was serious, but not a terrorist act. I would like to ask the academics and experts present here, what do you think of the issue? What is the definition of terrorism? Furthermore, what measures should be taken to punish terrorists?
张建:
Zhang Jian:
刚才联合早报记者提的这个问题，是关于当前香港局势中大家很关注的一个议题，为什么呢？这涉及到中央对香港事态的定性和中央立场的问题。我个人的看法，首先，我建议记者朋友们去看一下刚出版的新一期美国《时代》周刊，里面有一篇文章，专门讲美国本土恐怖主义。这个文章大体的意思是，现在美国的执法部门和政府官员越来越把美国本土的极端暴力行为视作恐怖主义，而且文章里提出了很多美国政府包括执法部门怎么应对本土的恐怖主义，当然主要是应对极端暴力事件，以及在社会上怎么提出解决方案。
The question from Lianhe Zaobao is about a serious issue related to the current situation in Hong Kong that has raised great concerns. Why? It concerns how the central government defines the situation in Hong Kong as well as its overall position on the issues involved. From my point of view, first, I would like to recommend that media friends read an article focusing on domestic terrorism in the United States published in the latest issue of the Time magazine. The general idea is that the law enforcement departments and government officials in the United States right now have become increasingly prone to consider extremely violent acts occurring in its homeland as terrorism. Moreover, it also proposed a number of measures that the U.S. government, including the law enforcement authorities, have taken to address the challenge of such domestic terrorism. Of course, the extremely violent incidents are the main focus. The article also offered some further solutions.
为什么美国会把本土的极端暴力行为视作恐怖主义呢？我觉得媒体记者肯定很关注这个问题，长期跟踪美国的新闻会看到，“9·11”以来，美国长期受到外部的恐怖主义袭击，其实这两年本土的恐怖主义也越来越多，这说明美国越来越把本土的国家安全重要性提到上面来了。实际上美国本土的恐怖主义，很多就是从极端主义、极端的暴力行为演化而来的。
Why are the extremely violent domestic acts being deemed as terrorism in the U.S.? I believe the media must be very concerned about this issue. We can tell from the news emanating from the United States that the country has been suffering foreign terrorist attacks ever since the "9/11" incidents [in 2001]. Actually, more and more incidents of domestic terrorism have been occurring in the U.S. It indicates it is making domestic national security a priority. As a matter of fact, terrorism in the U.S. stems from extremism and extremely violent acts.
第二，大家可以搜索一下，比如说联合国、欧盟、国际刑警组织，甚至包括西方的牛津词典里面关于恐怖主义是怎么定义的，方方面面的定义，都有一个共性，都把为了达到某种政治目的，以暴力、恐吓等不合法行为、破坏行为威胁国家安全、人民安全等作为“恐怖主义”。
Second, you can search the definitions of terrorism that the United Nations, the European Union, the International Criminal Police Organization and even the Oxford Dictionary offer. All these definitions have one thing in common -- they all define terrorism as the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, or disruptive behavior against national and civilian security, in the pursuit of political aims.
去年年底，我作为学者去德国和荷兰做学术交流，跟德国、荷兰的一些官员、学者交流恐怖主义的定义，他们基本上都认同把国内的极端暴力行为视作恐怖主义。我就很奇怪，大家知道，德国、荷兰在欧盟，在世界上是相对非常安全的国家，为什么他们会有这种看法的转变？实际上就源于最近这几年来德国、荷兰、英国、法国等这些传统西欧国家受到的本土极端暴力行为的损害。
I discussed the definition of terrorism with some local government officials and academics in Germany and the Netherlands while attending academic exchanges held in the two countries at the end of last year. They generally agreed to consider extremely violent acts occurring in their countries as terrorism. I was surprised by their opinion. We all know that Germany and Netherlands are generally very safe countries within not only the E.U. but even in the entire world. Why did they shift their views? It was all because of the growing number of extremely violent acts that have plagued Germany, the Netherlands, Britain, France and other Western European countries in recent years.
第三，刚才两位老师也都提到了，过去一周，香港发生的极端暴力行为，包括机场事件、用汽油弹袭击警察，这些事件导致了很严重的后果。刚才这位记者也提到了国务院港澳办对恐怖主义的看法。其实如果仔细分析港澳办的用语，其实并没有说现在香港出现的事态是恐怖主义，只是说出现这种苗头，近乎恐怖主义的行为，这个“近乎”或者“苗头”只是形容现在事态的严重性，就是说香港的暴力事件正在向这个过程过渡，如果不采取法治措施去惩治这些行为，遏制这些行为，它可能就会演化成真的恐怖主义行为。
Third, as has been mentioned, the extremely violent acts in Hong Kong over the past week, including the airport incident and petrol bomb attacks on police, have led to serious consequences. The journalist also mentioned the views of the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office of the State Council on terrorism. If we analyze the wording of its statement carefully, it didn't say the current situation in Hong Kong is terrorism; it just said it had a tendency of being almost terrorist acts. Words such as "almost" and "tendency" describe the seriousness of the situation, which means the violent incidents in Hong Kong are moving toward this tendency, and if lawful measures are not taken to punish and stop these acts, the violent incidents might flare up into real terrorist acts.
那么怎么样遏制这些具有恐怖主义苗头的极端暴力行为呢？再回到西方一些国家的做法。大家知道，去年法国“黄马甲”运动发生之后，一直持续到现在，法国为了应对“黄马甲”运动，今年4月紧急通过了一个《反暴力示威法》，把蒙面抗议作为一个刑事案件，你如果不摘掉蒙面的工具，就视作一种刑事案件，可以判处一年以上的定罪，在西方来看这已经很严重了。
How to stop the extremely violent acts that show signs of terrorism? Let's review the practices of some Western countries. As we all know, the "yellow vests" movement that broke out last year in France continues to these days. In April, the French government rushed through a law to curb violent protests. Hiding one's face while participating in a protest is now deemed a criminal act according to the law. If you refuse to remove the covering on your face, it will be deemed a criminal act, and you will face a sentence of at least one year if convicted. In the West, this is a very grave situation.
香港这种暴力发生之后，这几天香港社会方方面面很多人都表态反对暴力。从香港的反映来看，是和国际社会一致的，反对暴力是国际共识。怎么样遏制香港出现的这些极端暴力行为？有两个方面，第一方面，香港社会不能容忍这种暴力行为，要批判、批驳这种暴力行为。第二方面，香港执法、司法机构要严正执法、公正执法，处置推动或者进行极端暴力行为的个人或者团体。大家知道，香港的价值观和西方很相似，香港社会方方面面也很推崇西方的价值观。西方价值观除了民主、人权、自由之外，还有一个很重要的方面其实就是法治。美国有句很流行的话，“游行集会使用暴力就失去了宪法赋予你和平示威的权利”。
In recent days, after violent events occurred in Hong Kong, Hong Kong people from all walks of life have voiced their opposition to such acts. We observe that Hong Kong's response to the incidents is consistent with that of international society. Opposition to violence is an international consensus. How to contain the severe violence occurring in Hong Kong? First, Hong Kong society must have zero-tolerance for such violent acts and must criticize the perpetrators. Second, the Hong Kong law enforcement and judicial institutions must work to ensure strict law enforcement and impartial administration of justice in dealing with the individuals and groups inciting or committing severe violent acts. As we all know, Hong Kong reflects similar social values with the Western world. Western values have gained much appreciation from Hong Kong people from all walks of life. One of the most important aspects of Western values is the rule of law, apart from democracy, human rights, and personal freedom. There is a widespread saying in the United States: "Use of violence during rallies means you lose the right of peaceful demonstration granted to you by the Constitution."
在座记者都很年轻，大家可能经常看香港的文艺影视作品，关于警察的影视作品里，警察经常会说一句话，香港之所以成为国际金融中心，成为亚洲最安全城市的基石，就是法治，因为法治是香港的核心价值，这个问题刚才韩教授也提到了。所以我们回归到原初的问题，遏制香港出现的极端暴力行为中的恐怖主义苗头，最根本的还是依靠法治。
All journalists present today look very young. You may have watched a lot of Hong Kong films and TV series. In the police-themed films and TV dramas, the police often said that Hong Kong has become an international financial center and the safest city in Asia because of the rule of law, which is the core value of the city. Professor Han has talked about this point just now. Therefore, let's focus on the original point. The rule of law is the fundamental solution to address the signs of terrorism shown in the extremely violent acts in Hong Kong.
最后一句话，依法制暴，就是应对现在香港出现的恐怖主义苗头的根本方式，而且这个方式也是确保香港民众人身安全、确保香港整体利益的关键举措。谢谢你的问题。
Hence, stopping violence according to the law is the fundamental solution to address the signs of terrorism appearing in the violent acts being witnessed in Hong Kong, and it is a critical measure to ensure the personal safety of Hong Kong residents, and protect the overall interests of Hong Kong. Thank you.
香港无线电视记者:
TVB:
请问各位老师，最近我们看到解放军方面也提出了一些看法，全国人大常委会根据香港的基本法，是可以宣布香港进入紧急状态，还可以把全国性的法律引入到香港。现在看来，全国人大常委会是否已经要采取这个决定？如果真的采取这个决定，有些香港人就担忧，解放军一旦进入香港去行动的话，就是对“一国两制”很大的破坏，可能会令香港的局势更不可收拾。还有一个问题，刚才也有老师说应该坚持用法治的方法来解决香港的问题，有些民间的诉求也是希望从法治的方法解决问题，比如要求特首成立一个独立调查委员会，去找出冲突的真相。现在特首好像不认同成立委员会，你们觉得这是不是我们行政长官的一个责任？谢谢。
I have a question for you all. Recently, the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) offered a few views on the situation, including that the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress has the right, according to the HKSAR Basic Law, to declare a state of emergency in Hong Kong and introduce national laws in Hong Kong. At this point in time, has the Standing Committee made the decision to do so? If the decision has been made, some Hong Kong residents will be worried that once the PLA conducts operations in Hong Kong, the "one country, two systems" principle will be severely violated, and the situation in Hong Kong may become irremediable. There is another question. One of you just said that we should insist on solving the Hong Kong question by the rule of law, and the public has expressed similar demands. For example, some of them require the chief executive to set up an independent commission of inquiry to get to the bottom of the conflict. However, the chief executive doesn't seem to approve of the idea. Do you think it is the responsibility of the chief executive to do so? Thank you.
韩大元:
Han Dayuan:
今天我们很多专家都谈到了如何回到法治。第一个问题，我们大家都知道，“一国两制”的前提是“一国”，国家的统一、尊严和安全是“一国两制”的根本出发点，任何一个国家都会把国家安全、统一作为国家首要的任务。我们讲“依法治港”，用法律来治理香港，这就意味着要通过法治维护国家的统一和主权，始终维护香港的繁荣与稳定，始终要保障基本法赋予香港市民的权利和自由。这是我们法治的一个基本要求。
Today, experts here have talked a lot about how to return to the rule of law. First, we all know that "one country" is the premise of the "one country, two systems" principle. The unity, dignity and security of the country is the fundamental goal of the principle. Any country would make national security and social unity its top priority. We need to "govern Hong Kong in accordance with the law." That means we should, based on the rule of law, safeguard national unity and sovereignty, always maintain prosperity and stability of Hong Kong, and always safeguard the rights and freedoms conferred on Hong Kong residents by the Basic Law. This is one of basic requirements of the rule of law.
第二，当国家面临一些情况的时候，按照国际的惯例和法治一般原则，在法律中，对一些可能出现的情形，都做了预防性的制度规定，或者法律规定。刚才你谈到的这个问题，首先，香港有一个完备的法律体系，包括香港立法会通过的700多个条例，有《基本法》，有原有保留的法律，还有全国人大通过法律程序列入附件三的全国性的法律，我们认为法律是很完备的。第二，《驻军法》第14条明确规定了制度性安排，如果特区政府必要的时候，请求中央人民政府，请驻港部队协助维持社会治安和救助灾害。请求权是特区政府可以行使的，经中央人民政府批准以后，可以派出驻军人员协助维持社会治安。同时，《基本法》第18条第4款也规定，全国人大常委会有权决定特别行政区进入紧急状态，这是宪法和基本法明确规定的权力，它既有判断权，同时也有决定权、宣布权。但是这个权力的行使，根据《基本法》第18条第4款的解释，从学理上来说，它有法律的标准，一个是发生了危及国家统一或安全的动乱，二是特别行政区政府不能控制的情况下，根据《宪法》和《基本法》第18条第4款，全国人大常委会可以宣布紧急状态。根据《驻军法》相关规定，驻港部队根据中央人民政府的决定履行职责。这是法律上的规定。
Second, the country has made institutional provisions and legal regulations as precautions to deal with certain situations, according to the international practice and the general principles of the rule of law. As for the question you raised, first, Hong Kong has a complete legal system, including more than 700 laws enacted by the Legislative Council of the HKSAR, the Basic Law, laws previously in force and the national laws listed in Annex III by the National People's Congress through legal procedures. We believe this provides a complete legal system. Second, Article 14 of the Garrison Law makes clear institutional arrangements that when considered necessary, the HKSAR government can send a request to the central government to invite the PLA Garrison to help maintain local public order and engage in disaster relief efforts. The HKSAR government may exert its right to make this request. The Garrison will be deployed to help maintain public order after the central government approves the request. At the same time, the fourth paragraph of Article 18 of the Basic Law stipulates that the Standing Committee of the National People"s Congress has the right to decide that the HKSAR is in a state of emergency, which is clarified in both the Constitution and the Basic Law. The Standing Committee of the National People's Congress has the right to make such a judgment, make the decision and make an announcement. The fourth paragraph of Article 18 of the Basic Law explains that the exertion of this right, in theory, has to meet certain legal standards. When turmoil in Hong Kong endangers national unity or security and is beyond the control of the HKSAR government, the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress may declare a state of emergency. According to the Garrison Law, the PLA Garrison should fulfill its duty following the decision of the central government. This is stipulated by law.
至于刚才这位记者问的，这个规定的实施会不会造成“一国两制”的失败？我个人认为，“依法治港”的应有之义，就是通过法治来维护主权、安全和发展利益，以及香港的繁荣稳定和香港市民的权利和自由。如果出现法律规定的情形时，有严格的法律程序。所以我们强调法治、回归法治，通过法治来解决香港面临的问题，这是我们唯一的途径。
As for the question you just asked, will the implementation of this provision cause the failure of the "one country, two systems" principle? I personally believe that the proper meaning of "governing Hong Kong in accordance with the law" is to safeguard national sovereignty, security and development interests through the rule of law, as well as the prosperity and stability of Hong Kong, and the rights and freedoms of its citizens. There will be strict legal procedures in the event of a legally prescribed situation. Therefore, we emphasize the rule of law, return to the principles enshrined in the rule of law, and solving the problems facing Hong Kong through the rule of law. This is the only way for us.
如果大家有兴趣的话，可以看一下，35年前，邓小平先生曾经在会见港澳同胞国庆观礼代表团谈话中说过，中央有权在香港驻军，驻军还有一个作用，可以防止动乱。那些想搞动乱的人，知道香港有中国军队，他就要考虑一下，即使有了动乱，也能及时解决。35年前制定《基本法》的时候，很多规定是个预防性的制度，我们要这样理解这个条款，它是学理上的立法原意之一。
If you are interested, you can check this yourselves: 35 years ago, Deng Xiaoping said in a conversation with a delegation of Hong Kong and Macao compatriots attending the National Day celebration ceremony that the central government had the right to station a garrison of the PLA in Hong Kong. The Hong Kong Garrison would have another role: to prevent violence and turmoil. Knowing that there are Chinese troops stationed in Hong Kong, people with an intention to instigate violence and turmoil would have to think twice about it. And even if there were turmoil, it could be stopped immediately. When the Basic Law was enacted 35 years ago, many provisions had preventive connotations. We must understand this article in that way. It is one of the legislative intents theoretically speaking.
关于独立调查委员会，法治是核心的价值，我们回应任何一个诉求，解决任何社会的争议，首先看法律上有没有相应的机制和程序。按照法治的理念，我们要充分发挥已有的法律规范资源和制度，当我们的某一个制度或某个规范无法发挥作用的时候，我们再选择看有没有更好的制度安排。根据我的了解，监警会已经开始运作，也受理了一些有关的投诉。大家也关注一下监警会，这是香港一个有特色的制度，要看看它的效果，对正在运行中的制度要保持信心，发挥它的功能。这是我的理解。
With regard to an independent commission of inquiry, the rule of law is the core value. Before we respond to any appeal or resolve any social dispute, we must check first whether there are corresponding mechanisms and procedures within the existing system of law. In accordance with the concept of the rule of law, we must give full play to existing legal norms, resources and systems. When one of our systems or a certain norm fails to function properly, we can seek potentially better institutional arrangements. As far as I know, the Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC) is already operational, and has already received some relevant complaints. You should pay attention to the IPCC. This is a distinctive system in Hong Kong, and we should look at its effects and keep the faith in the operating system, and make sure it functions well. This is my understanding.
中国日报记者:
China Daily:
有人认为，目前示威者的行为是通过违法的手段来表达合理的政治诉求，是一种正当的“公民抗命、违法达义”，请问各位专家对这个观点有什么评论？
In some people's eyes, the latest protest is in an effort to express rational political appeals by infringing the laws. It has been interpreted as "civil disobedience and achieving justice by violating the laws." What do you think about it?
何俊志:
He Junzhi:
在我们的观察当中其实也发现，这次运动当中的确是出现了这样一个现象，就是一些人用了“违法达义”的概念，其实还远远不止这样一些概念，它有一个非常大的特点，就是试图把暴力行为进行合法地包装。
We have noted that some people used the concept of "achieving justice by violating the laws" to describe the movement, and this is not the only concept they have adopted to label their violence as legal conduct.
如果从真实的规范学理去推，这个概念是推不出来的。我个人也在想，这样一个明明推不出来的东西，为什么还有人相信？提供两点供大家参考：
The concept is in no way supported by real and standardized academic principles. Personally, I wonder why some people believe in the things that proved groundless. I have two points to share with you for reference in this regard:
第一，根据我的查阅，我发现其实早在2011年前后就已经有一些搞理论的人试图做这个事了，因为当时他们就提出了一些类似的概念，后来又出现了“公民抗命”这样一些说法，包括你刚才说的“违法达义”。而且，在2014年非法占中运动的过程当中，其实他们已经试过这样一些概念的效果。所以，我觉得第一个原因，可能他们一直有人在做理论的准备和前期的演练。但是还有一个问题，它是明显不具有道德正当性的概念，为什么还是让有些人相信呢？我觉得还有一个原因，这个概念很容易让我们产生一个联想，就是在理论上与一些正当的“公民不服从”理论联系起来，给人一个暗示，他就是在做“公民不服从”的运动。如果我们严肃检讨一下“公民不服从”理论的话，这个理论的出现有一系列的要求，有非常高的条件，其他的条件我就不多讲，我觉得至少有两个条件是最必要的。第一，你只能针对已经存在的不合理的法律或者政策。第二，只能以和平的、非暴力的方式进行。现在我们再来看这个概念，其实就做了一个明显的偷换概念，用“违法”来掩盖了暴力，客观上鼓励了暴力行为的产生。
First, based on my research, similar concepts emerged as early as 2011 when some theorists attempted to propose them, including what was later known as "civil disobedience," and "achieving justice by violating the laws" just as you mentioned. Moreover, the effect of those concepts was tested in the illegal "Occupy Central" movement in 2014. Therefore, there are probably some who have been involved in sketching out these theories and making pre-stage rehearsals. However, here is a question -- why do some people buy the concept that obviously contradicts the nature of morality? Therefore, another reason is that the concept that can be easily associated with some authentic theories of "civil disobedience," is proving alluring to some people, who believe they are engaged in a movement based on proven theories. However, if we take a look at the concept of "civil disobedience" in a serious way, the theory is highly conditional with a slew of prerequisites. The two fundamental conditions, which I don't plan to elaborate on here, are, first, the theory should be only targeted at existing illegitimate laws and policies, and second, it should involve only peaceful and non-violent demonstrations. Now, let's analyze this concept. The concept obviously distorts the meaning by taking violence as "violation of laws," which is actually stimulating the emergence of violence.
我们回过头来看，其实从理论上讲，不管是国际学术界还是香港本地的主流理论界，也没有接受这样一套说法，而且我注意到，2018年香港本地的法院针对“违法达义”有个判词，主要依据就是我刚才说的这两个要件，其实一个都没有满足，第一是要针对已经存在的不合理的法律政策，第二是只能以和平的非暴力方式展开，所以理论上是没有办法展开的。香港本地的司法实践已经在现实当中把这个否定掉了。所以，他试图做这样一个正当性的论证，但是这个论证理论上不成立，实际上已经被否决了。今天出现的有些暴力行为明显是受这样一个概念的影响，所以我们还是要回过头来，在理论上把它澄清。
Let's take a look at examples from previous years. Theoretically speaking, the concept is not accepted in the international academic world or in Hong Kong's own major academic field. Moreover, I have noted a verdict made by a HKSAR court in terms of "achieving justice by violating the laws," based on the two conditions I mentioned before. First, it should be targeted at illegitimate laws and policies, and, second, it should develop in peaceful and non-violent ways. As [the present unrest] fails to reach both of these standards, it is theoretically invalid. The concept has also been vetoed by Hong Kong's judicial practitioners. Therefore, the attempt to give credibility to the concept is theoretically null and pragmatically vetoed. The violence today is obviously influenced by a concept. Therefore, we need to clarify the underlying theories.
第二个，我非常同意刚才几位的看法，还是要回到法治的轨道上来，才能解决问题。
Second, I couldn't agree more with all of other speakers. We should only solve questions by resorting to the rule of law.
彭博新闻社记者:
Bloomberg:
想问修改“一国两制”基本法的问题。经历了两个多月的事情，各位专家觉得有必要修改“一国两制”或者《基本法》吗？如果需要修改，怎么修改？谁启动这个过程？谢谢。
My question is about revising the "one country, two systems" principle and the Basic Law. After the incidents in the past two months, do you think that it is necessary to revise them? If yes, how to do it? Who will initiate the process? Thank you.
陈端洪:
Chen Duanhong:
我在这两个多月也听到很多质疑“一国两制”的具体政策和《基本法》的制度安排的声音，他们也在问，是不是需要改变一些政策，或者《基本法》要不要“动手脚”，要不要启动修改的程序？我觉得，我们可以反思一下，当我们提这个问题时，你觉得这件事是“一国两制”错了吗？如果你说“一国两制”错了，我想请问，它错在哪个地方？哪一条错了？很多事情做不通或者产生了争议，只是可能导致一场社会危机、政治危机或者经济危机，但是不一定构成宪制危机，所以我们不要把这两个问题混淆起来。
In the past two months, I heard lots of doubts about the specific policies of the "one country, two systems" and the institutional arrangement of the Basic Law. There have also been questions as to whether it is necessary to change some policies, to "tamper with" the Basic Law, or to initiate an amendment procedure? I think we need to reflect on that. While raising such questions, do you think the "one country, two systems" is wrong? If you think so, I want to ask: Where does it go wrong? And which specific statement within it is wrong? When some practices don't work or create controversies, there may emerge a social, political or economic crisis, but not necessarily a constitutional one. We must not mix the two issues.
“一国两制”这个概念，实际上是有一个大概念、一个小概念。小概念就是基本方针政策，《基本法》写了保持香港原有的资本主义制度和生活方式五十年不变，即便修改《基本法》，都不得跟这个相抵触，这就构成了一个修改的限制。如果说具体政策的话，任何国家的具体政策，都会因为政治危机、社会危机、经济危机进行调整，具体政策很灵活的。所以我觉得，要看从哪个层面去理解，从根本、大的层面上来讲，中央也反复讲过一些话，坚持“一国两制”不会变、不动摇，这些话都已经反复强调过了。我只是想大家提醒一点，我们认为一个社会危机就是宪制危机吗？这是我要提醒的。
As for the "one country, two systems," there are actually a broad concept and a narrow one. The narrow concept refers to basic policies. The Basic Law stipulates that the previous capitalist system and way of life shall remain unchanged in Hong Kong for 50 years. Any amendment of the law must not contradict that stipulation, thus constituting a restriction on amendments. Any country would adjust their specific policies due to a political, social or economic crisis. Specific polices are very flexible. So, I think it depends on from which perspective you view the issue. In the fundamental or broad sense, the central government has repeatedly emphasized some points, including the unswerving implementation of "one country, two systems." Here I would like to remind you of one thing: is social crisis equivalent to constitutional crisis? That's what I want to remind you.
《基本法》的修改，香港基本法第159条规定得非常清楚，启动权或者提案权，是全国人大常委会、国务院和香港特别行政区的，这三个主体都有。但是我怎么也看不出来，这次事情本身跟修改《基本法》有什么直接的必要性。至于以后，有没有必要进行一些政策调整，我不敢做这个判断，这应该是取决于有关部门自己的判断。谢谢。
Article 159 of the Basic Law stipulates that the power to propose bills for amendments to this Law shall be vested in the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, the State Council and the HKSAR. However, I can't understand what the current situation in Hong Kong has to do with the amendment of the Basic Law. As to whether it is necessary to adjust some policies in the future, I cannot make such a judgement. It should depend on the judgement of relevant departments themselves. Thank you.
CGTN记者:
CGTN:
我有个问题请问各位专家学者，我们都知道，目前有言论指，香港对于中国的经济和金融有着独一无二的意义，那么目前示威者似乎有以香港国际金融中心的地位来逼中央就范的想法，请问各位专家学者对此怎么看？谢谢。
I have a question for you. As we all know, some people say that Hong Kong is of unique significance to China's economy and finance. Now, the demonstrators seem to have the idea of taking advantage of Hong Kong's status as an international financial center to force the central government into submission. What do you think of it? Thank you.
田飞龙:
Tian Feilong:
我们知道，香港是国际金融中心。在全球金融治理体系当中有个说法，叫做“纽伦港”，就是纽约、伦敦、香港，大家打开24小时的全球时区，这三个地方正好是三分天下，它们是全球金融市场秩序的时空和秩序连续性的关键节点。伦敦和纽约2011年左右相继发生过大规模骚乱，这两场骚乱里，我们也可以研究和观察英国政府和美国政府及警察是怎么样应对金融中心发生的骚乱和暴力活动的，香港警察也应该从中有所学习，并且用类似的标准去处理和稳定金融中心的地位，这些能给我们很大的启发。
As we know, Hong Kong is an international financial center. In the global financial governance system, there is an expression called "Nylonkong," which refers to New York, London and Hong Kong. When you check the 24-hour global time zone, these three places divide the world exactly into three parts. They are the key nodes of the global financial market order in terms of space and continuity. Large-scale disturbances occurred successively in London and New York around 2011, and we can also study and observe how the U.K. government and the U.S. government as well as the police coped with the riots and violent acts in the financial centers during the two disturbances. The Hong Kong police should also learn from them and adopt a similar standard to deal with and stabilize the status of Hong Kong as a financial center. These can give us a lot of inspiration.
第二点，我想指出的是，香港国际金融中心地位的获得，是与我们回归时所设定的“一国两制”和《基本法》紧密相关的，如果没有这个制度安排，香港金融中心的地位不仅难以得到维持，更难以得到巩固和加强。如果我们不是很健忘的话，可以回顾一下，1997年香港回归到现在是22年，香港金融中心的地位其实受到了不同力量或者不同形式的干扰和冲击，有些是基于经济目的，比如说国际游资大资本做空，有些是基于政治目的，利用金融中心进行政治要挟。可以举四个例子，1997年亚洲金融危机、2008年世界金融危机、2014年非法“占中”运动、2019年的“反修例”运动，很显然，1997和2008是偏向于全球游动资本对香港国际金融中心的冲击，它是为了金融套利。2014年非法“占中”和2019年的“反修例”有明显的政治目的。
Second, I would like to point out that Hong Kong's status as an international financial center is closely related to the principle of "one country, two systems" and the Basic Law of the HKSAR we established when Hong Kong returned to the motherland. Without them, Hong Kong's status as a financial center will not only be difficult to maintain, but will be even more difficult to consolidate and strengthen. If we haven't forgotten history, we can take a look back. It has been 22 years so far since Hong Kong's return, during which Hong Kong's status as a financial center was actually interfered with and impacted by different forces or in different ways. Some of them were economic in nature, such as major global hot money going short. Others were based on political motives, for example, using the financial center to create political threats. The Asian financial crisis in 1997, the global financial crisis in 2008, the illegal "Occupy Central" movement in 2014, and the anti-amendment movement in 2019 are just four examples of this. Obviously, the crises in 1997 and 2008 were more of the impact that global hot money placed on Hong Kong's status as an international financial center for the purpose of financial arbitrage. The illegal "Occupy Central" movement in 2014 and the anti-amendment movement in 2019 carried obvious political intentions.
历次香港金融体系遭遇到的重大冲击，我们看中国中央政府是怎么做的。1997年我们的经济非常困难，外汇储备也不多，但是在香港这个金融市场面对困难的时候，我们几乎是倾其所有、不遗余力地支持香港救市，这在回归之初，使得中国政府、中国的金融监管机构与香港的金融监管机构、香港社会之间结成了紧密的金融安全的命运共同体。2008年世界金融危机同样波及香港，如果没有内地经济的坚挺和稳定，我相信香港各个阶层和香港社会也会受到很大的损失，但是因为背靠内地的市场和国家的支持，香港安然度过了2008年的金融危机。2014、2019年的政治目的就非常明显了，以“一国两制”所保障的香港国际金融中心地位来反向要挟或者威胁“一国两制”，这是个很滑稽的逻辑。他们追求的实际上是跟自己利益相违反的、不正常的、不理性的逻辑。
Let's review the central government's reaction when Hong Kong's financial system was threatened during these years. Back in 1997, China's economy was fraught with severe difficulties, and we didn't have large foreign exchange reserves. Still, when Hong Kong's financial market faced trouble, the central government offered everything, as much as it could, and spared no effort in propping up the Hong Kong market. As this happened at the very beginning of Hong Kong's return to the motherland, it united the central government, the Hong Kong society and the financial regulatory institutions in both places, and further brought them together as "a community with a shared future for financial security." The 2008 financial crisis also affected Hong Kong. If it hadn't been for the strong and stable economy of the Chinese mainland, I believe that all sectors of Hong Kong and its society would have suffered great losses. With support of the Chinese mainland market and the country, Hong Kong weathered the financial crisis in 2008. As for the incidents happening in 2014 and 2019, they came with very clear political intention. It is ridiculous to undermine the "one country, two system" with Hong Kong's status as an international financial center, since such a position is actually guaranteed by the practice of "one country, two systems." What they are pursuing is actually against their own interests, and this is abnormal and unreasonable.
无论是香港的反对派、街头的黑衣人和外部的干预势力，他们都没有很好地衡量到香港的金融中心地位——不仅仅是中国的金融基础设施，也是经济全球化的金融基础设施。这个金融中心地位是每一个对贸易自由、经济全球化以及世界和平发展负责任的人，都应该有意识地去共同维护的。因为这个基础设施不仅对中国是重要的，对全世界也是重要的，这个金融中心如果受到冲击的话，我相信受损害的不仅仅是香港、中国，也包括欧美，尤其对美国的股市、美国的金融安全会造成很大的损害。目前有数据和迹象表明，香港金融中心受到持续暴力活动的冲击，已经在反向波及美国股市和美国的金融安全，这方面，我相信美国的决策层也会做出客观的评价和应对。所以，在全球化时代，没有任何一方是可以置身事外的，必须是共同面对。在香港的话，大家可以凝聚一个共识，香港的国际金融中心地位需要香港法治的支撑。因此，我觉得香港社会各界应该很快会从这场运动当中清醒过来，凝聚成止暴制乱、恢复秩序的法治共识，用法治牢牢支撑香港国际金融中心的地位。这是我的回应。
Whether it is the opposition, the black-clad crowd, or the foreign forces, none of them has thought through Hong Kong's role as a financial center – the financial infrastructure not only for China, but also for economic globalization. Anyone responsible for free trade, economic globalization, and peaceful global development should obligingly and jointly protect Hong Kong's vital role. This is because the infrastructure matters for both China and the rest of the world. If disruption was brought to this financial center, I believe that not only Hong Kong and the rest of China, but also Western countries would be severely affected, especially the U.S. stock market as well as its financial security. Current statistics indicate that due to the continuous violence in Hong Kong, the U.S. stock market and its financial security have already been affected. In this regard, I believe the U.S. decision-makers will make an objective judgement and respond accordingly. In this age of globalization, no country can opt out or is immune to globalizing forces, and we must face this together. In terms of Hong Kong, we should build a consensus that Hong Kong's role as an international financial center cannot exist without the rule of law in Hong Kong. I think all sectors in Hong Kong should listen to reason, reach a consensus on the rule of law to stop violence and chaos and bring back order. Hong Kong's status as an international financial center should be firmly supported by upholding the rule of law. This is my response.
金融时报记者:
Financial Times:
上个月香港特首自己承认，政府的修例工作是完全失败了，所以很多香港人不懂为什么中央政府还支持她？如果她是省长或者市长，在中国内地，她肯定会被开除对吗？能不能解释中央政府为什么不开除她？谢谢。
Last month, the Hong Kong chief executive admitted that the government's work on the amendments was a total failure. Many Hong Kong people can't understand why the central government is still supporting her. If she were a provincial governor or a city's mayor in the Chinese mainland, she would most surely be fired, right? Can you explain why she was not relieved of her duties by the central government? Thank you.
赵可金:
Zhao Kejin:
我是从事中美关系研究的。其实我从三年前就开始关注香港问题，为什么呢？因为我在从事中美关系研究时发现，美国对香港投入了非常大的精力和资源，而且在美国的评价当中，香港历任特首都不怎么样，都干得不好，从董建华先生开始，美国就批评香港、批评特首。但实际上，香港回归以来，我们看香港的经济社会发展的表现，成绩还是非常大的。而且，每年暑假也都会有香港的学生到内地上课，我也跟他们有很多交流，我所接触到的大多数香港人对香港特区政府的施政还是非常肯定的。
I'm a researcher on China-U.S. relations. Actually, I've been studying issues relating to Hong Kong for three years now. Why? Because while studying China-U.S. relations, I discovered that the U.S. has spent a lot of energy and resources in Hong Kong. According to U.S. comments, none of the Hong Kong chief executives have done their jobs well. The Americans have been criticizing Hong Kong and Hong Kong's chief executives since Mr. Tung Chee-hwa. But actually, Hong Kong has made many achievements in terms of socio-economic development since its return to China. Each summer, there are Hong Kong students coming to study in the Chinese mainland. We have communicated a lot with them and I found that the majority of them are supportive towards the governance of HKSAR.
香港今天的问题，表面上看好象是香港内部出现了问题，但事实上它有着深刻的国际根源。大家看得越来越清楚，现在关注的重点已经不再是解决香港特区政府内部的问题，已经是在挑战“一国两制”的底线，而且是用非法暴力行径，这种行径在欧美等发达国家都是严厉禁止的。所以“项庄舞剑，意在沛公”，不理解当前中美关系的大背景，是不可能理解香港问题的总根源的。
On the surface, Hong Kong seems to have problems within, but in fact these issues have profound international origins. As you can see clearly, the focus is no longer about addressing HKSAR's internal problems, but the illegal and violent conduct that is challenging the bottom line of the "one country, two systems." Such conduct is strictly prohibited in Western developed countries. As a Chinese saying goes, "Xiang Zhuang performed the sword dance as a cover for his attempt on Liu Bang's life," which means that someone speaks and acts with a hidden motive. Therefore, without seeing the bigger picture of China-U.S. relations, one cannot uncover the root cause of the Hong Kong question.
我从事中美关系研究时发现，美国对香港的政策，其实是拿着香港作文章。最初是美国冷战政治的一部分。香港回归之前，美国就和港英政府做了很多工作，1991年通过的《1992财年和1993财年对外关系授权法》明确提出，要推动香港的“民主自治”，1992年美国国会通过了《美国-香港政策法》，这是把香港作为英国的殖民地，因为英国和美国是同盟，利用这种特权来制定对香港的政策。但是，在香港回归以后，美国并没有改变这个政策。香港回归以后，已经不再是英国的殖民地，是中华人民共和国的特别行政区，按照国际惯例，美国应该调整香港政策，应该终止1992年的《美国-香港政策法》，但是美国并没有这样做。我们知道，一旦法律制定以后，接下来就有机构、有预算，所以，1992年《美国-香港政策法》之后，从1995年开始，美国通过全国民主基金会等很多机构，在香港支持和培养香港的反对派，以此推动所谓的香港“民主建设”。而且我发现，在每次香港出现大规模游行的时候，不仅华盛顿在煽风点火，而且在香港特区，美国的相关机构也在积极支持，投入上千万美元，所以这是今天香港局势走向骚乱的一个总根源。至于特区政府在施政当中出现什么问题，自然会通过特区政府的相关法律去解决，有相关的程序去推动。
While studying China-U.S. relations, I found that the U.S. policy towards Hong Kong is to take advantage of Hong Kong for its own purposes. From the beginning, the U.S. took Hong Kong as part of its Cold War Politics. Before Hong Kong's return to the motherland, the U.S. did a lot of work with the then British-ruled Hong Kong. According to the Foreign Relations Authorization Act for Fiscal Years 1992 and 1993, which was passed in 1991, the U.S. wanted to promote "self-governing democracy" in Hong Kong. In 1992, the U.S. Congress passed the United States-Hong Kong Policy Act, treating Hong Kong as a British colony. Since the U.K. and the U.S. are allies, the U.S. government formed the policy on Hong Kong based on this privilege. However, after Hong Kong's return to the motherland, the U.S. did not change the policy. After its return, Hong Kong was no longer a British colony but a special administrative region in the People's Republic of China. According to international practice, the U.S. should have adjusted its Hong Kong Policy and terminated the United States-Hong Kong Policy Act of 1992, but it didn't. As we all know, as soon as a law is enacted, there will be corresponding institutions and budgets to support it. Therefore, after the 1992 act and since 1995, the U.S. has continued to support and develop opposition forces in Hong Kong through institutions such as the National Endowment for Democracy, in order to promote so-called "democratic development." I also found that every time there was a large-scale demonstration in Hong Kong, not only did Washington try to stir up trouble, but related U.S. organizations in Hong Kong would also pour tens of millions of dollars to support them. So this is the root cause of Hong Kong's current situation. The problems occurring in the HKSAR will naturally be solved through the relevant laws of the HKSAR government. There are relevant procedures to promote this.
作为一个学者，我个人认为，在今天中美关系发生变化的历史时刻，香港作为全世界最自由的经济体，也成为一个最脆弱的地方。所以，解决香港问题最重要的是清除一些国家在香港问题上长期持有的殖民心态和冷战思维，不要利用香港最自由经济体的便利条件，把它打造成一个牵制、遏制中国发展的“桥头堡”，更不应绑架香港的民意，以此达到自己的国家利益。
As a scholar, I personally believe that at the historical moment when China-U.S. relations have changed, Hong Kong, as the freest economy in the world, has also become the most vulnerable place. Therefore, the most important thing to do to solve the Hong Kong question is to remove the colonial mentality and Cold War mindset that some countries have long held on the Hong Kong question. Do not let them exploit Hong Kong's status as the world's freest economy and make it a bridgehead to further hamper and contain China's development, and do not let them hijack Hong Kong's public opinion in order to achieve their own national interests.
内地和香港应该一起来清理这种殖民心态和冷战思维，至于在施政过程当中遇到的经济问题、社会问题等各方面的问题，都可以坐下来通过体制内的、法治框架内的有关程序和规则予以解决，而不应诉诸街头暴力，因为这种暴力是不能解决任何问题的。所以，随着内地和香港联系更加紧密，我们现在要把“去殖民化”作为一个核心问题，一旦这个问题解决了，我认为香港现在出现的所有问题都会迎刃而解。谢谢大家。
The mainland and Hong Kong should work together to clean up this colonial mentality and the Cold War mindset. As for the economic and social problems encountered in the course of governance, they can sit down and resolve the problems through the relevant procedures and regulations within the system and within the framework of the rule of law, instead of resorting to street violence -- as such violence does not solve any problems. Therefore, as the mainland and Hong Kong are now more closely linked, we must now regard "de-colonization" as a core problem. Once this problem is solved, I believe that all the problems that have arisen in Hong Kong will be solved. Thank you all.
法新社记者:
AFP:
韩老师，刚刚赵老师讲这次抗议游行的背后可能有美国的“黑手”，你跟他是同样看法吗？你有没有觉得香港市民有什么实质性的不满？
Mr. Han, Mr. Zhao said that America may be the "manipulator" behind the protests. Do you have the same view? Do you think there is any actual dissatisfaction among the people of Hong Kong?
韩大元:
Han Dayuan:
赵教授是中美关系的专家，他把香港问题放在国际关系里面，特别是中美关系的大框架下来判断。我是宪法学教授，我的基本观点跟前面我强调的一样，任何一个社会都没有一个完美的政府，也没有完美的法律，法律也会有缺陷。任何一个国家的政府，包括美国、法国都一样，在工作当中，在施政当中出现一些问题，民众不满意，但是我们有完善的法律制度和程序来解决。我们要降低民众的维权和诉求成本，让问题能够在有效的法律程序内得到解决。面对香港目前这样一个缺乏社会共识、充满争议的局面，我们唯一的途径就是回到法治，守护法治，用法治来解决。我觉得，无论是政府还是市民，只有在法治的框架内，通过法律的途径，才能得到一个有效的解决，既解决问题，又寻求共识，使得香港的繁荣与稳定有一个有效的法治保证，这也是我的一个基本观点。越是这个时候，我们就越需要更加珍惜来之不易的香港法治传统，回到法治的轨道。谢谢。
Professor Zhao is an expert in China-U.S. relations. He analyzed the Hong Kong question within the framework of international relations, especially that of China-U.S. relations. I am a professor of constitutional law. As I've emphasized earlier, my point of view is that there is no perfect government in any society, nor is there a perfect law. Laws are not flawless. Any government, including that of the United States and France, may face the same situation where problems and public dissatisfaction occur in the course of governing and administration. But we have a sound legal system and sophisticated procedures to solve them. We should make it easier for the public to make appeals and safeguard their rights so that problems can be resolved following effective legal procedures. In the face of Hong Kong's current controversial situation where social consensus has not been reached, the only solution is to return to the rule of law, protect the rule of law, and solve the problem with the rule of law. No matter whether it be for the government or the citizens, I think the problems can only be effectively solved within the framework of the rule of law and through legal channels. To solve the problems and reach a consensus at the same time, and ensure a prosperous and stable society with the rule of law is also what I maintain. It is precisely during this period that we need to cherish the hard-won rule of law tradition in Hong Kong and get Hong Kong back on the right track of the rule of law. Thank you.
寿小丽:
Shou Xiaoli:
今天的吹风会就到这里。谢谢各位专家，谢谢各位记者朋友们，大家再见！
Distinguished experts, friends from the media, today's briefing concludes here. Thanks to you all. Goodbye!
来源：天之聪口译
